John HERBERT

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JOHN HERBERT’S family relationships, facts, document/photo gallery in ANCESTRY – https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/23784401/person/1447353362/facts

JAMES AND PHOEBE’S son, JOHN HERBERT, was born on 14th August 1837 at Warmington.  John was a farm labourer and marred RHODA SIMMS (born 1841) of BRAILES on 21st October 1862.  They had a daughter LIZZY HERBERT born 27 May 1863 at Warmington.  They moved to Birmingham and had another daughter FANNY HERBERT born 1864. They had three more children – see below.

Involved with John in libel and slander court proceedings taken against them by the Rev. FREDERICK RICHARD ANDREWS, relating to who was the father of Fanny’s child, FREDERICK RICHARD HERBERT.

FANNY HERBERT gave birth to FRED in September 1882 when she was 17 and claimed that The Rev ANDREWS was the father. He denied this through two sets of court proceedings.

In 2020 ROGER HERBERT, FANNY’s great grandson, discovered he had a DNA match with one of Rev. ANDREWS descendants…. He was the father all along! Read the full story here.

John moved with wife Rhoda and daughter Lizzy from Warmington, Warwickshire in the early 1860s to Birmingham and then on to West Bromwich. Fanny was born in Birmingham in 1864 and later children in West Bromwich. Their address in Birmingham (taken from Fanny’s birth certificate) was 19 Great Barr Street, Digbeth. John’s occupation was the “Warehouse Porter”. They moved to West Bromwich before William Herbert’s birth in around 1868.

In the 1871 Census JOHN AND RHODA lived at 10 Mill Street, West Bromwich. John was by 1891 working as a Straw Dealer, which developed into the Herbert family business of Corn and Seed Merchants (W. & F. HERBERT with premises known as Town Corn Mills in Shaftesbury Street, West Bromwich, just round the corner from Mill Street) and continued until 1970. By 1881 PHOEBE, John’s mother had moved from Warmington to live with them in West Bromwich.

By 1891 FRED (grandson) was living with them and Fanny, his mother, had moved out. Rhoda’s brother Edward Simms and her father , also Edward, also moved to Wednesbury and nearby West Bromwich.

See censuses below for more details.

1871 Censusat 10 Mill Street, West BromwichAge 
JOHNHead33Labourer born Warmington
RHODAWife30Wife       b. Brailes
LIZZIEdaughter8Scholar   b. Warmington
FANNYdaughter6”              b. Birmingham
WILLIAMson3son          b. West Bromwich
CHARLESSIMMS    Visitor (Rhoda’s Brother)22Labourer (married) b. Brailes
    
1881 Censusat 10 Mill Street, West Bromwich  
JOHNHead45General Labourer.  b Warmington
WILLIAMSon12Scholar   b. West Bromwich
SUSANDaughter9“
GEORGESon7“
PHOEBEMother80 b. Warmington
    
1891 Censusat 10 Mill Street, West Bromwich  
JOHNHead54Straw Dealer         b Warmington
RHODAWife50Dressmaker           b. Brailes
GEORGESon17Gen Iron Caster    b. West Bromwich
FREDERICK RICHARDGrandson8Scholar                   b. West Bromwich
SUSANDaughter19Assistant Dressmaker   b. West Bromwich

Rhoda SIMMS

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RHODA HERBERT née SIMMS – family relationships, facts, document/photo gallery in ANCESTRY –
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/23784401/person/1469047150/facts

b. Abt 1840 in Brailes, Warwickshire d. 1917 West Bromwich. One of nine children of Edward SIMMS and Ann Brewer.

m. 21 Oct 1862 JOHN HERBERT at Dassett Magna, Warwickshire.  Five children. Lizzy, FANNY, Susan, William and George.

Involved with John in libel and slander court proceedings taken against them by the Rev. FREDERICK ANDREWS, relating to who was the father of Fanny’s child, FREDERICK RICHARD HERBERT.

FANNY HERBERT gave birth to FRED in September 1882 when she was 17 and claimed that The Rev ANDREWS was the father. He denied this through two sets of court proceedings.

In 2020 ROGER HERBERT, FRED’S grandson, discovered he had a DNA match with one of Rev. ANDREWS descendants…. He was the father all along! Read the full story here.

Rhoda moved with husband John and their daughter Lizzy from Warmington, Warwickshire in the early 1860s to Birmingham and then on to West Bromwich. Fanny was born in Birmingham in 1864 and later children in West Bromwich. Their address in Birmingham (taken from Fanny’s birth certificate) was 19 Great Barr Street, Digbeth. John’s occupation was the “Warehouse Porter”. They moved to West Bromwich before William Herbert’s birth in around 1868.

In the 1871 Census JOHN AND RHODA lived at 10 Mill Street, West Bromwich. John was by 1891 working as a Straw Dealer, which developed into the Herbert family business of Corn and Seed Merchants (W. & F. HERBERT with premises known as Town Corn Mills in Shaftesbury Street, West Bromwich, just round the corner from Mill Street) and continued until 1970. By 1881 PHOEBE, John’s mother had moved from Warmington to live with them in West Bromwich.

By 1891 FRED (grandson) was living with them and Fanny, his mother, had moved out. Rhoda’s brother Edward Simms and her father , also Edward, also moved to Wednesbury and nearby West Bromwich.

See censuses below for more details.

1871 Censusat 10 Mill Street, West BromwichAge 
JOHNHead33Labourer born Warmington
RHODAWife30Wife       b. Brailes
LIZZIEdaughter8Scholar   b. Warmington
FANNYdaughter6”              b. Birmingham
WILLIAMson3son          b. West Bromwich
CHARLESSIMMS    Visitor (Rhoda’s Brother)22Labourer (married) b. Brailes
    
1881 Censusat 10 Mill Street, West Bromwich  
JOHNHead45General Labourer.  b Warmington
WILLIAMSon12Scholar   b. West Bromwich
SUSANDaughter9“
GEORGESon7“
PHOEBEMother80 b. Warmington
    
1891 Censusat 10 Mill Street, West Bromwich  
JOHNHead54Straw Dealer         b Warmington
RHODAWife50Dressmaker           b. Brailes
GEORGESon17Gen Iron Caster    b. West Bromwich
FREDERICK RICHARDGrandson8Scholar                   b. West Bromwich
SUSANDaughter19Assistant Dressmaker   b. West Bromwich

Frederick Richard ANDREWS (The Rev.)

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FREDERICK RICHARD ANDREWS – family relationships, facts, document/photo gallery in ANCESTRY – https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/23784401/person/172087067355/facts

b. 1837 All Stretton, Shropshire. d. 10 July 1928, Yorkshire.

A famous minister in the Primitive Methodists, see obituary below.

Involved in two courts cases:-
1. Against John and Rhoda Herbert for slander and libel relating to him being the father of their daughter’s , FANNY HERBERT (aged 17), baby, FREDERICK RICHARD HERBERT.
2. By FANNY against the Rev claiming he was the father and for child maintenance payments.

He strenously denied (on oath, in court) that he was the father. He won £20 damages in the slander case plus £30 legal costs. Fanny was initially awarded 5 shillings and week in the second case, but this was overturned on appeal.

ROGER HERBERT and ANGELA RUTH HERBERT’s great-grandfather, unknown for many years! Eventually found out in 2020 by ROGER’s (fanny’s great grandson) DNA match to one of the Rev.’s descendants. It only took 138 years…..

Full court proceedings #1 here.
Full court proceedings #2 here

Frederick Richard Andrews

Transcription of Obituary published in the Minutes of Conference by Rev.

P. Tomlinson

To the majority of Primitive Methodists of this generation, Frederick Richard Andrews is a name and nothing more perhaps, but forty years ago it signified the name, known throughout the Denomination, of one of the most gifted and eloquent preachers our Church has produced. The mere announcement. of that name was sufficient to guarantee a crowded congregation.

Born amongst the delightful scenery in the neighbourhood of Church Stretton, Shropshire, the family removed, when Frederick was but a little child, to Brierley Hill. It was upon this Circuit that he became a Local Preacher and from here he eventually passed into the ministry of our Church. Serving his probation on the old Ludlow Circuit, his subsequent ministry was spent at Brierley Hill, Tunstall, Wrockwardine Wood, Darlaston, Bilston, Old Hill, West Bromwich, Sheffield, Liverpool and Kilburn (London).

Possessing a certain amount of native ability, he set himself, early in life, to deep and earnest study to improve his mind and to develop his natural qualities until eventually he became one of the foremost preachers in our Church—eloquent, powerful, popular.

Despite these popular gifts and the great demands for his services he was ever a faithful Circuit minister. Interested in the welfare of his people and conscientious in the discharge of his Circuit work, in addition to being an arresting and convincing preacher, he was a devoted pastor and friend of the people. No wonder, therefore, that on his Circuits new schemes were entered upon and old debts were liquidated, whilst at the same time he witnessed many wonderful seasons of revival and spiritual renewal. Conversions were many and frequent, and it was always his proud boast that he never had to report a decrease of membership upon any of his Circuits.

Literary work also found prominence in his life. Two small booklets came from his pen, one called ‘‘The Glory of Old Age” and the other ‘‘Care for the Young,’’ together with two books, “A Bright Light in a Dark, Place” and “Yet” a volume of sermons. Later in life he became widely known in and around the city of Hull as a weekly contributor to The Hull Evening News under the pen name of “Marcus Faithful.”

A casual acquaintance with our friend would give the impression that he was proud and even austere, and certainly he was. Yet beneath a proud exterior and a dignified demeanour there was a warm and friendly heart, full of tenderness and sympathy, and he was a great ‘‘encourager.”

F. R. Andrews was possessed of a passion for the salvation of men and women, born of his own rich experience of the joy of salvation and a deep sense of the wonder and reality of Redeeming Love. He had read widely and deeply in

theology, poetry, history and biography. As a student he was thorough. His public utterances always revealed thoroughness of preparation and clearness of perception.

He possessed a winsome and an attractive personality, a pleasing style, a rich, clear, musical voice and a chaste vocabulary.

His active ministry covered a period of forty-one years. Throughout this time he was wonderfully blessed in his wife a sweet, gentle, loveable soul. Mrs. Andrews

– a daughter of the sainted James Prosser – gave herself unstintingly to assisting her husband in his high calling, and his success was due in no small measure to the loving devotion and self-denial of his wife. For many years, despite the responsibilities of a large family, Mrs. Andrews acted as her husband’s secretary, thus relieving him of much detail work.

Twenty-seven years ago Mr. Andrews superannuated and settled first in Hull and afterwards in Hessle. Throughout that period he was ever at the service of the Churches. To the end he retained his interest in reading and preaching and the affairs of the Church, until God called him on July 10th, 1928, after a long illness, at the ripe age of ninety-one.

The funeral service in our Hessle Church was conducted by Revs. P. Tomlinson and T. Hacking, assisted by Revs. A. Wood and L. Robinson, and Alderman J.V. Mainprize, J.P. Rev. G. Hind gave the address, in which he paid tender tribute to the worth and work of our brother.

Mrs. Andrews survived her husband by but a few months, and she passed to the higher life at the home of her daughter (Mrs. Lloyd) on January 2nd, 1929, at the age of eighty-five.

Reference

PM Minutes 1929/253

Another obiturary –

Frederick Richard HERBERT

Published on: by RogerHerbert2 Category:Uncategorized Comment

FREDERICK HERBERT’S family relationships, facts, document/photo gallery in ANCESTRY – https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/23784401/person/1427605541/facts

FREDERICK RICHARD HERBERT married ELSIE BRIDGMAN at the Congre­gational Church, Stratford-on-Avon on 14th March 1905 when they were both 22. He gave his Father’s name as JOHN HERBERT (deceased) but in fact JOHN was his Grandfather. His Mother was FANNY HERBERT.

She gave birth to him at 10 Mill Street, West Bromwich on 17th September. 1882. She was only 16 17  at the time and on his Birth Certificate his Father’s name is “unknown”.  He was evidently brought up by his Grandparents and may not have known that FANNY was his Mother.  If he did, he never told anyone, and FRED’S children always referred to FANNY as Aunt FANNY. (His father now traced by DNA = The REV. FREDERICK RICHARD ANDREWS).  Read FANNY’S full story here.

On FRED and ELSIE’S Marriage Certificate his occupation and that of his “Father” is given as Hay and Straw Dealer.   They then lived at 164 Moor Street, West Bromwich.

During the First World War FRED was in the Army and spent a long time in the trenches in France.

FRED and ELSIE lived at 5 Grange Road, West Bromwich.

FRED and ELSIE had five children :‑

WINIFRED   born 27 December 1906 d. 7 July 1990

KATHLEEN   b 22 November 1908 d Jan 2000

ARTHUR EDWARD   b 22 February 1916 d Jun 1920

PHILIP RICHARD    b 2 November 1921  d 29/30 June 1942

FREDERICK CLIFFORD b 29 November 1922  d 13 May 1990.

FRED bought a car just after the War and used to take all the children and his wife to Selsey for a month each Summer. He used to leave them there and return each weekend.
They also had holidays in I.O.W. and St. Asaph, N. Wales. They always had a live-in maid.

He was in partnership with WILLIAM HERBERT (his Uncle) but always referred to as his Brother. The partnership was called W & F Herbert, Wholesale Corn Merchants, Sandwell Road, West Bromwich and later at Town Corn Mills, Shaftesbury Street, Carters Green, West Bromwich.

WILLIAM drank and the partnership was dissolved about 1928. When WILLIAM died some years later FRED offered to pay for the funeral and when the bill arrived the flowers from the widow and various other members of his family were included!

OWEN HERBERT’S  family ran a Corn and Seed shop and the Post Office at Carters Green.

LIZZIE and FANNY once ran a shop in Bull Street, West Bromwich, financed by FRED.  He also bought them a house in Cordley Street, Carters Green.  LIZZIE died first and when FANNY died in 1949/50 FRED sold the house.
FRED bought WILLSON & Hood Ltd. Corn Merchants, Market Place, Bridgnorth after the Second World War. He also bought the Maltings next to the River Severn and two cottages plus a quarry in Shropshire.
In 1953 he bought “Willowbrook”, Roughton, Worfield, Bridgnorth and he moved there with his wife ELSIE and eldest daughter WINIFRED in 1955.  This was a lovely Georgian house with a large ornamental pool, kitchen garden, paddock, 5 garages, 3 loose boxes and stabling. The total area was 2 acres – 2 roods – 20 perches!   He paid £6,000 for all this and spent vast sums having it renovated.           

See sales particulars when this was sold by auction on May 26 1971 for just under £20,000.

In 1967 FRED sacked an employee of Willson & Hood who went back one night with a friend and set fire to the buildings in a number of places. It was reputed to be the biggest fire in Bridgnorth for over 70 years.  The two men went to prison for three years, but it ruined FRED as he had not insured the premises sufficiently. He borrowed heavily from the Bank to rebuild although he was over 80 at the time.  The builders were “cowboys” and he had to change to other builders in “mid—stream”.  In the meantime he closed W. & F. Herbert in West Bromwich and sold Town Corn Mills. He then ran the two firms from Bridgnorth.

FRED was a short dapper man of about 5ft. 4 ins.  He smoked quite heavily all his life until he was nearly 80 when he had an attack of asthma and gave up smoking overnight.  He had his suits, shirts and shoes made to measure. He was a keen racegoer and in later life spent his holidays at Worthing so that he could go to Goodwood races each day, leaving his wife ELSIE alone at the hotel. She was stone deaf from the age of 40.        
Her Mother HANNAH BRIDGMAN had also been deaf from middle age.  ELSIE’S daughter WINIFRED also became deaf in her early 40’s.  A relative, DR. NEVILLE McCARTHY who lived in Australia had to give up his practice as he too became stone deaf.

ELSIE died on 24th August 1968 in Queen Victoria Nursing home, Wolverhampton of cerebral thrombosis.

FRED died in August 1970 shortly before his 88 birthday.

Millichips,Solicitors, West Bromwich dealt with the Estate and kept the Death Certificate It was found that the affairs were very muddled and Willson & Hood Ltd went bankrupt  There were also insufficient funds left to pay all the debts of W & F Herbert but rather than let them go bankrupt and leave WINIFRED with nothing but her own bits and pieces of furniture, FRED‘S son FREDERICK CLIFFORD who had been a partner for some 20 years until 1965, paid them out of his own money which was due to him on a Promissory Note of £11,500 – his share of the partnership CLIFF also owned shares in Wilson & Hood which should have realised some £7,000 but turned out to be worthless.

Fanny HERBERT

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After John and Rhoda HERBERT moved to Birmingham from Warmington/Brailes with daughter Lizzy, they had another daughter FANNY HERBERT born 1864 in Birmingham.

b. 2nd November 1864, 19 Great Barr Street, Digbeth, Birmingham d. 24 Nov 1942, 6 Cordley Street, West Bromwich.

Fanny’s family relationships, facts, document/photo gallery in ANCESTRY –
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/23784401/person/1469047150/facts

Fanny died here at 6 Cordley Street, West Bromwich in 1942

FANNY HERBERT gave birth to FREDERICK RICHARD HERBERT in September 1882 when she was 17 and claimed that The Rev. Frederick Richard ANDREWS was the father. He denied this through two sets of court proceedings. She had moved with his family to Sheffield to work as a maid. He was around 36 years old with a wife and five children and was a relatively famous preacher.

In 2020 ROGER HERBERT, FANNY’s great grandson, discovered he had a DNA match with one of Rev. ANDREWS descendants…. He was the father all along! Read the full story here.

John Herbert moved with wife Rhoda and daughter Lizzy from Warmington, Warwickshire in the early 1860s to Birmingham and then on to West Bromwich. Fanny was born in Birmingham in 1864 and later children in West Bromwich. Their address in Birmingham (taken from Fanny’s birth certificate) was 19 Great Barr Street, Digbeth. They moved to West Bromwich before William Herbert’s birth in around 1868.

She gave birth to FREDERICK RICHARD HERBERT at 10 Mill Street, West Bromwich on 17th September. 1882 and on his Birth Certificate his Father’s name is “unknown”.  

He was evidently brought up by his Grandparents, John and Rhoda, and may not have known that FANNY was his Mother.  If he did, he never told anyone, and FRED’S children always referred to FANNY as Aunt FANNY. (His father now traced by DNA = The REV. FREDERICK RICHARD ANDREWS).  Read full story here.

When he got married, he gave his Father’s name as JOHN HERBERT (deceased) but in fact JOHN was his Grandfather. On FRED’s Marriage Certificate to ELSIE BRIDGMAN in 1905, his occupation and that of his “Father” is given as Hay and Straw Dealer.   They then lived at 164 Moor Street, West Bromwich.

FANNY spent most of her life as a Domestic Servant and Housekeeper. See Ancestry for further documentation and addresses. She left home in 1881 to work in Sheffield for the Rev. FREDERICK RICHARD ANDREWS, who, despite his evidence to the contrary on oath in court, was to be the father of her child!

LIZZIE HERBERT and FANNY once ran a shop in Bull Street, West Bromwich, financed by FRED.  He also bought them a house in Cordley Street, Carters Green, West Bromwich, around 300 yards from Town Corn Mills, which Fred then ran with William Herbert.  William was known as his brother, but was in fact his uncle.

LIZZIE died first and when FANNY died in 1949/50 FRED sold the house. On her death certificate – see Ancestry – the informant was Elsie (Bridgman) Herbert “Sister-in-law”, living at 5 Grange Road, West Bromwich. She was, of course, her daughter-in-law.

In the 1871 Census Fanny lived at 10 Mill Street, West Bromwich with her parents. In 1881, she was living in Sheffield with the ANDREWS family….. In the 1891 Census, Fred is referred to as “Grandson”. See censuses below. In the 1901 Census – see Ancestry – he is referred to as “Son”…..

1871 Censusat 10 Mill Street, West BromwichAge 
JOHNHead33Labourer born Warmington
RHODAWife30Wife       b. Brailes
LIZZIEdaughter8Scholar   b. Warmington
FANNYdaughter6”              b. Birmingham
WILLIAMson3son          b. West Bromwich
CHARLESSIMMS    Visitor (Rhoda’s Brother)22Labourer (married) b. Brailes
    
1881 Censusat 10 Mill Street, West Bromwich  
JOHNHead45General Labourer.  b Warmington
WILLIAMSon12Scholar   b. West Bromwich
SUSANDaughter9“
GEORGESon7“
PHOEBEMother80 b. Warmington
    
1891 Censusat 10 Mill Street, West Bromwich  
JOHNHead54Straw Dealer         b Warmington
RHODAWife50Dressmaker           b. Brailes
GEORGESon17Gen Iron Caster    b. West Bromwich
FREDERICK RICHARDGrandson8Scholar                   b. West Bromwich
SUSANDaughter19Assistant Dressmaker   b. West Bromwich

Ethel May COUSE

Published on: by RogerHerbert2 Category:Uncategorized Comment

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/23784401/person/27101788462/facts

ETHEL worked at PRICE (PETER) ALMOND’S stationary shop in High Street, West Bromwich where she became (very) good friends with him.

He was married with two children – a daughter DOROTHY who married TONY JUKES (they had two daughters, CHRISTINE and MARGARET, and a son, who emigrated to AUSTRALIA.

PETER was a contemporary of CHARLES COUSE, ETHEL’ S Father. Shortly after his first wife died (the first body to be cremated from West Bromwich) he married ETHEL and they went to live in HOVE.   Daughter JILL was born on 11th April 1921. They  eventually returned to West Bromwich and lived in Grove Crescent, Birmingham Road, West Bromwich.

During one illness when a day and night nurse were engaged to look after him he “fell” from the upstairs bedroom window but survived.

JILL had diptheria when she was about six and had two nurses to look after her.

PETER died on 12th March 1938. ETHEL bought a smaller house in Beeches Road, West Bromwich and had the house in Grove Crescent turned into three flats which she let.

PETER left £2,969.

JILL married EDWARD (DICK) MOREN in 1948 and had two sons, ANTHONY and PETER. 

ETHEL died in All Saints Psychiatric Hospital Birmingham.

JILL and DICK then sold up in 1957 and emigrated to Canada where they lived in Kingston, Ontario. ANTHONY is married and has adopted two Korean children and PETER is also married with two children.